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Most networking advice was built for men and tested on men. It tells you to work the room, collect contacts, and follow up fast. But research across four continents and fifteen years of longitudinal studies shows that women who network like men consistently underperform the women who don't. Networking strategist and two-time author J. Kelly Hoey breaks down the landmark study that launched her latest book, The Social Billionaire: women who reach the top don't just stay plugged into information flows. They build a second, inner circle of like-minded women with diverse networks, and they use three high-impact strategies most women have never been taught: brokering, churn, and visibility. If you've been told to "just get out there and network" and it's never moved the needle for your business, this episode explains why, and gives you the research-backed formula that actually works.
Guest: J. Kelly Hoey, networking strategist and author of Build Your Dream Network and The Social Billionaire. Recognized by Forbes and Inc. for her influence. Website: jkellyhoey.co
A landmark study of MBA students found that equally credentialed, equally ambitious men and women had dramatically different outcomes based on network structure. Men who succeeded just needed to be centrally positioned in the information flows. But the women who outperformed everyone did something different: they maintained the same public information network AND built a second, inner circle of like-minded women with diverse networks. This inner circle gave them backchannel information, honest feedback, and strategic advice that the broader network couldn't provide.
Across multiple longitudinal studies spanning fifteen years, the women who adopted traditionally "male" networking behaviors, being transactional, activity-driven, and focused on immediate returns, consistently underperformed. The women who prioritized relationship-building, who were intentional about time allocation, and who continuously invested in other women's success outpaced everyone. This isn't about networking more. It's about networking differently: goal-driven, time-conscious, and centered on lifting other women.
Kelly's research revealed the formula isn't just about networks. It's three pillars working together. Focus means your goals, opportunities, and values. Grit means your mindset, time allocation, and self-care (if you don't put your own oxygen mask on first, you can't help anyone). Networks means your particular network structure, high-impact strategies, and the social-emotional relationships that sustain you. The workbook format of The Social Billionaire is designed to help women audit what they have and build what they need.
Brokering is sitting between two parts of your network and spotting an opportunity to connect them in a way that creates specific value. It's not "you two should know each other." It's "here's exactly how you could help each other." Churn is auditing where your network has gone stale, where you're over-indexing, and where you need fresh perspectives. Churn doesn't mean ditching relationships; it means rotating the seats at the table. Visibility is being strategic about where and how you show up in both your inner circle and broader professional networks, whether that's contributing content, taking leadership roles, or simply being present at the right events.
For women entrepreneurs, the formula requires starting with a specific business goal, not "I want to hit a million dollars" but the milestones underneath it. Then asking: what does the business need at this stage? Who are the relationships that serve that need? Kelly advocates for term limits on advisory boards, because the people who helped you incorporate may not be the people who help you scale. Setting clear expectations upfront ("I need your help with X for the next six months") eliminates guilt, prevents the relationship from going stale, and gives both sides the freedom to say yes or no with clarity.
J. Kelly Hoey [2:42]
I'm so thrilled to be here and having this conversation with you, Adrienne.
Adrienne Garland [2:46]
Me too. We met, and I would say I'm I'm gonna know the exact year because I know when you spoke at my conference. So we met in 2016 when the She Leads conference, kind of transitioned from what it was. It was a, conference that I did with a really good friend of mine that was actually just thinking about the this morning, Laura Leitez. We had a conference called WomanCon, the conference for women. And, she moved on to other things, and I kept the conference going. And I was familiar with your work because I think I had listened to you on a podcast, and I wanted you to be on I think it was our podcast panel, but you had your book at the time. And once I started learning about you and everything that you were doing to help women, I said, I have to have Kelly at my conference. So that's how we all met. And you just bring such incredible intelligence and energy and just this wonderful sense of wanting to promote others and help form relationships. So can you tell us because I know you in that way. How did you get to kind of start in on this whole build your dream network and the power of networks type of we're in New York City, people.
J. Kelly Hoey [4:15]
Hello, New York.
Adrienne Garland [4:16]
Hello, New York. How did you how did you sort of get your your start and really focus on networks and the power of networks?
J. Kelly Hoey [4:24]
That is such a great question because my career started as an attorney and very, I want to say, kind of traditional long term focus on how you built relationships for client development and that focus and recognition that you needed to not only build external relations and have an external profile, but what was your profile and what were your relationships within most law firms or corporations? They're quite big. Right? They're partnerships, but they might as well be a corporation. Right? So it started there. It was my own journey in terms of switching out of the practice of law into a management role and lessons I learned in that, having had a very rich and deep network in the law, and I'm gonna say banking with the client work. When I wanted to go and do something else, I was like, shoot. You know? I don't have what I need. But really, I never thought I did anything special, Adrienne, about networking or or, seriously did not think I did anything special. And there's two pivotal pivotal moments or maybe three pivotal moments on that. One was a boss saying to me, you need to tell people what you do. Need to tell them how you build relationships and how you how you do this. And I looked at him and told me it was the stupidest thing I'd ever heard in my life.
Adrienne Garland [5:45]
It's like, how do you make a friend? Like,
J. Kelly Hoey [5:48]
ten years later, was, you know, eating crow when Bill you know, Bill Build Your Dream Network came out because I had to send it to him saying, you were instigator for this idea. Two, the conversation I had with Janet Henson, the founder of the global business network, eighty five Broads, when after a thirty minute phone call with her, she offered me a job that didn't exist because she wanted to un she had met me or heard about me through eighty five Broads and my membership in that network, and she called me and she's like, who are you and what do you do? And I laid out my you know, what I was doing in an alumni role, and I laid out my philosophy on networks and their value and how the interactions. And she's like, yeah. I need you to come be my president. And so, you know, that happened. And then thirdly, I mean, sometimes the universe has gotta hit you over with a big old stick sometimes. And then the third was must have been let me think, 2014. So just, you know, a short while before you and I really met. And two authors reached out to me to ask me to give my insights on networking for books that they were writing and publishing. And I kinda went, yeah. Okay. Maybe I should just write the book. And so that was the birth of Build Your Dream Network. That's how we met, you know, all that kind of stuff. And that's, you know, also that interest that led to the new book, The Social Billionaire.
Adrienne Garland [7:10]
I can't wait to dive into what The Social Billionaire is all about. And I wanna rewind because it's so funny. The world is so small. So Janet Hanson was also a keynote speaker at one of my conferences, which is maybe how I got to know you. And we actually had one of the conferences at 85 Broad Street, one of the SheLeads conferences. Yeah. So, I'm a huge fan of of Janet's and everything that she just continues to do for, you know, women and she was the originator of the Elevate network that I think everybody knows sold to Sally Krawczyk and has transformed so much, but it's still going. Just super interesting. And, you know, one of the things that we talk about on the podcast a lot is how important it is for women to truly understand their finances and, you know, to to make sure that we are great stewards of our our money, our capital. And, you know, I talk about this all the time and I and I it it we have to talk about this more, how when women have access to capital, we do great things with it in the world. And I'm not just talking about donating. Right? I'm talking about using that money to really, you know, help people start businesses that solve problems. And I hope that everybody that listens into this podcast takes away from this conversation that is going to be so amazing. You know, how do you build your social capital so that you can then also build your capital capital so that you can do great things that benefit society. So I I just I cannot wait to dive into this. I haven't had the opportunity to read the book yet or to work the book. Right?
J. Kelly Hoey [8:59]
Work the book. Work
Adrienne Garland [9:00]
the book. I can't wait to dive in and work this book. But can you tell us what what prompted this this latest writing of this book? What is it you know, what what did you really want to communicate through this amazing book?
J. Kelly Hoey [9:19]
So what prompted this book was being asked by, Good Morning America to comment on a piece of research that showed that it was it was, looking at the communication patterns of individuals in a leadership program, you know, bracket, Ivy League, And it showed that one group of women did particularly well and that they had a different network and communication, like, through the communications, a different network strategy than anybody else. And so here you had a pool of people, but by definition, equally ambitious, equally credentialed, equally motivated. And what was different here? And so what they discovered was that the women who didn't do as well networked like the men who did well. And the women who did really well had this different network strategy. So there was a lot of, you know, oh my god. Here we go. Women have to do things harder. I'm like, what are you talking about? This is fantastic news, this study. Here's the recipe. Here's the two networks you need to leverage or you need to look and see how you're engaging and interacting. Like, there's the recipe. Then I wanna say that was late two thousand nineteen. And then that little thing called COVID happened. Anyway, which was fantastic because then I got to, like, dive down a rabbit hole of research because, well, a really outstanding study out of an IV is great. That's a very limited pool of women.
Adrienne Garland [11:06]
Yes.
J. Kelly Hoey [11:07]
Right? So I'm like, where else does this pattern show up? So I'm researching, and it's like, you know, women entrepreneurs in Bangladesh and middle managers in Germany and women in film and women in higher education and women in management roles in Australia. Like, you name a study, I was like down that rabbit hole, parsing it, pulling it apart, and also running a coaching cohort to work through the concepts and see how does this all work and what is the right way to, you know, I wanna say, share and deliver this information? And as a result of that, we now have The Social Millionaire.
Adrienne Garland [11:47]
Wow. So what did this initial study say about what the difference was between the women that successfully, quote unquote, networked and those that didn't? Can you can you reveal?
J. Kelly Hoey [12:05]
No. Absolutely. Absolutely. So what it showed was, and let's let's let's do it in the context of that particular study, because like I said, it's a it's a really great one as a as a learning tool. But it as I said, my research didn't stop there. It was like, where else does it
Adrienne Garland [12:20]
show doesn't apply across. Right.
J. Kelly Hoey [12:22]
Mhmm. Yeah. Let's make sure that this formula applies everywhere as opposed just to, you know, women in an MBA program. So what it showed was to be successful, the men looking at the men who were successful successful in landing internships and roles and all that kind of stuff, They just needed to be centrally positioned within the information flows.
Adrienne Garland [12:46]
They just needed to stand there.
J. Kelly Hoey [12:48]
Yeah. They needed to you know, they weren't like a day late and a dollar short with information. They knew what was going on. They were getting the information in a timely manner. They had their ear to the ground. Maybe there was things they were involved with, but that's what they needed to do. And this one group of women, that's what they did. They just did the same thing these these guys did. Mhmm. What these successful women oh, we're gonna have a big old New York in a second. What what these six the the more successful women did
Adrienne Garland [13:25]
They're really successful.
J. Kelly Hoey [13:27]
Yeah. They're like, woah. Woah. That's right. Those are cheering on these successful women. So what these other women did was, yes, they made sure they were also attuned to what was going on within the public information flows in the MBA program and on campus with employers, all that, you know, student groups. They were aware of all of that, that, and they were they were in those flows. And they had a second network, which was an inner circle cohort or clique as they call referred to it in the study, primarily, not exclusively, but primarily of other like minded women with diverse networks. So let's put it into practice. You hear on campus about an employer who's hiring, and you're thinking, you know what? I might just take my little MBA, you know, down to Goldman Sachs or Bank of America or Capital One or Fortress or whoever. And there's, you know, gonna be a career fair or there's gonna be an application process. But the you you know? The dudes, that's they could just go off and do that. What these women would do is they take that information, and then they take it to the smaller group. And they would be like, okay, this is what I'm thinking of doing. Here's the ones I'm applying for. This is what wanna do. And this is where they could get feedback. They could get advice. One of them could say, oh, you wanna apply to, you know, you know, x y z company? When they say they only want a one page, you know, CV, they mean it because my cousin works there. And if you put it on a page and a half, they're gonna ding you. Like, like, it's getting that kinda whisper network back channel. Mhmm. The the key to having, I wanna say, like minded, because so many women will say to me, oh, but I've got my sister or my mom or my cousin or whatever. And I'm like, your best friend from wherever. I'm like, yes, aunt. You gotta give the right network the right job to to do. Your sister, your mom, your cousin, your best friend isn't in the isn't in the same kind of driver's seat of their career as you are, you may be getting their fears, anxieties, limitations, versus someone who's gonna look you straight in the eyes and say, I don't care if you wanna wear that suit. Right? Don't. Yeah. Don't wear it. Or I don't care if their website says, you know, business casual. They are suit people, so put on your bloody suit and go to the career fair in that. Like, show them that you know what they're like, it's that, like, that little bits of stuff that takes your application or your resume, that first impression, it takes it out of, you know, the big inbox of everybody else and gets it where it needs to be.
Adrienne Garland [16:27]
This is so fascinating. I for a a hot minute, I worked at PricewaterhouseCoopers, and I always say it was the best job on paper and the worst job of my life. But I did learn a lot about how important building relationships is. And what you are describing is very much what many of these consultants do. So it's not just about, you know, having relationships, going to play golf, going to these events. It's more about when you are at an engagement and you're at a company, what are those, you know, quiet centers of power almost? And what is unsaid that is super important? It's almost like the the culture of it all. Right? And I think that men, because they you know, they're all in in this game together. It's just something that is done naturally, and they wouldn't probably even be able to name it. Right? And so women have got to do some of those things as well because we're not we we don't tune into those types of of things. I mean, because we don't you know, that's not how we necessarily operate. Right? We're we're told if you are extraordinary at your job, there's no reason that you shouldn't get that role, but it's not about that.
J. Kelly Hoey [17:59]
Yeah. It's about it's
Adrienne Garland [18:00]
all of this other stuff.
J. Kelly Hoey [18:01]
Yeah. And it's and it might very well be, you know, a guy who was saying that to you. Then we've got the layers of, you know, people's perceptions and first impressions and bias. And, you know, you can go down all of those, you know, all those That Rolodex of problems. Right? You know, the reality is like, okay, that stuff exists. Because there were several longitudinal studies, like really outstanding. We're talking fifteen year studies within the same corporation. So again, you're comparing apples to apples. Even when they took into account all the isms, racism, sexism, blah, blah, blah, there were still these women excelling, and it was like, what did they do differently? So it was more than the networks, right? This was their approach to building relationships. They were continuously building relationships. They valued, were building and prioritized, building relationships with other women. Exactly. They were very careful in their time allocation. So in the sense of they realized mentoring or they realized networking is a priority, and they were very much like, okay, how much am I allocating to this? When am I allocating? Because they were very and always driven by their goals. So that was So some of this, when you say to women, this is sort of goal focused, intentional networking, they're like, Oh, hold on a minute here. But I'm like, Yeah. And all these studies show that the women who were transactional in their networking, because I think a lot of us would look at men and go, They're transactional in their style of networking. Men build networking through activity. And that for many women, Oh, just take them to a ball game. You just do this. We would feel that that feels transactional. Oh yeah, need some new business. Let's take so and so golfing. We use some stereotypes on activities. So the women who fell into that bucket of doing those things, right? Behaving like the guys. Oh, I met him yesterday. I'm gonna call him up and ask him for business. They didn't do as well as the women who were constantly prioritizing relationship building. Now that doesn't mean that they're dropping everything else, but you look at it and you say, Okay, when am I gonna include this activity of relationship building? You know what? I'll show up to the meeting five minutes early. You know what? Three junior employees have asked me the same question. Guess what? I'm going to mentor them together rather than three separate meetings. Things like that where they were like, yes, I wanna do this. Yes, I have my own stuff to do. And here's a way I can do it that, you know, fits it in. So, yeah, know. It's a
Adrienne Garland [20:56]
lot. No. That you know, it's it's a it's a lot. And so I think I'm searching for, well, you know, what's the what's the formula there though? And what you know, taking your buddies out on the golf course and doing business, it works. Right? It it works for them. It doesn't necessarily work for women, but there's other activities, I'm I'm sure, that women can do together as well that go beyond just, you know, like, having a Zoom. So what are some of those things that
J. Kelly Hoey [21:30]
are You let me go back to to a word you used in setting up this question, which was formula. Because there is a formula for success. And this is the way that the social billionaire is laid out. Because I realized in doing the research, it wasn't just the networks and then and some high impact networking activities. It was other things as well. So Yeah. It's, as I like to say, it's focus, it's grit, and it's networks. Focus is your goals, your opportunities, and your values. That was a really key thing for these high achieving women. Grit is your mindset, your time allocation, and your self care. Like, you know, it's like if you don't put your own oxygen mask on, You're gonna you die. You know what? You can't help anybody else, people. Right. There's a reason they say that on the airlines. And then the networks, it was, you you sort of like this very particular network structure. It is some high impact networking strategies, and it is your social emotional relationships. Back to what I said earlier, give the right network the right job to do. So, yes, personal relationships are really important. That's part of our self care. That's part of our values. And they can't be, you know, the tail wagging the dog when it comes to, you know, who we should be tapping for, the insights and the and the connections and the feedback we need to take our careers forward. So for anyone, the first thing I always say in terms of networking is you've got to audit the network you already have. What are you doing? Like, before you start thinking what you should be doing, what are you doing now? What are the ways that you're interacting and behaving since a network, as you and I both know, Adrienne, is built by It's a two way street. It's built by mutual interaction. You've got to do that audit. You've to see what you've got. You've got to take a big, hard look in the mirror and say, What am I doing to nurture and grow this ecosystem? Because you know what? The problem with your network may not be the network. Just saying. Right? So there's the first thing you need to do. And then you've got to look at some of these activities. Maybe they've reached their expiry date. Maybe being in a leadership role on a committee is the right thing for you, but you've been on the same one for ten or fifteen years. Might be time to change roles, right? So you need to go and look at that and really take a look at what is the richness that you have there? What are the activities that align with your values that I want to say are worth your time because they give you energy? That might be the best place for you to network versus, you know, someone else telling you to to go off and do something. Then in terms of high impact activities, one of the really key ones that women do not do is a networking strategy called brokering. Okay. And what that is is when you're sitting between two pieces of your network and you spot an opportunity for one or the other, and you know that you can broker that introduction, you can facilitate that meeting, so whatever their outcomes come about. Right? So let's take your podcast for an example. Okay? I'm a fan of your podcast. I've listened to your podcast. Now I'm a fan of you. Right? So it's it, right? All before I'm sitting here on the podcast, I know what the podcast is about. Who am I out there in the world talking to a meeting that I go, Hold on a minute here. Adrienne's audience is the audience you wanna connect with. Maybe, hey, I bet Adrienne would love some sponsors for her podcast. This person wants to get in front of these women and this audience. They don't know where they are. There's a possibility here. Maybe I can say, Have you ever thought about hosting a podcast to this person in my network? Here's one for you. Why don't you listen to it? And I'll make an introduction to Adrienne. And then facilitating that sort of thing. Brokering is not the, You two should know each other and I'll let you figure it out from here. Is networking BS. Is annoying. That is unhelpful. This is seeing, Oh, hold on a minute here. I've recently brokered some introductions. I want to say a friend in real estate who's working with high net worth. This is a new area for him. And a friend who, through her philanthropy advising, has been dealing with high net worth people for a very long time. Wow. Both of them do not come from this world. I'm like, You two don't know each other exists. Here's how I think you could be helpful to each other. Right? You're both navigating a strange new little wonderland. Here's like, you know, it's like Dorothy finding the tin man and the scarecrow. Right? You know, and the lion. Here we go. And so it's like, now I've introduced them. Now it's like, Oh, yes, I can give you feedback because I have been talking to these high net worth individuals for a much longer period of time than you have. When you need a gut check, when you need a, you know, Hey, what do you think? They're saying this. What does that really mean? They now have a safety zone to do that with, as well as creating business opportunities for each other.
J. Kelly Hoey [29:38]
Okay. Here's where I challenge you on that.
Adrienne Garland [29:40]
Yes, please.
J. Kelly Hoey [29:41]
It feels great when it adds great value. Right? And it's that kind of networking generosity that you're like, this will come back to me. I'm just doing this because this is gonna make some magic happen here. Right? Yeah. We're also let's look at it from a time allocation. Right? Back to the my, you know Yep. Is the second pillar of grit. Okay? How much easier is it to send a few emails and network with a few people than having to get on their calendar, schedule a coffee date, all that. Okay. Next thing you know, it's six months and nothing's happened. There's times to network from your keyboard, and brokering is one of them. Right? But it's adding the things that they can't see. And I would say from the position where women are from networking generosity, I will admit to you, it doesn't feel good to me sometimes. And then I sit back and say, why didn't this feel good? I'm like, oh, because this person's not gonna nurture and I've now realized this person's not gonna nurture and care for my network and my contacts the same way I do. And so there definitely are things that I think about. And that's not a hesitation. It's just like, are they going to nurture this connection as well as I do? Because if I have any doubt, any doubt in my gut, I'm like, Well, I'm not gonna do it. Might go to the other person and say, I've thought about making this introduction. This is what they do, and this is why I thought it would be a good one, but I've got some hesitancy, but I leave it to you if you wanted to, you know, reach out to them on your own and make inquiries, rock and roll, but, you know, not me. But, yeah, if I'm if I'm feeling kind of icky about it, then I'm like, okay. What's the real?
Adrienne Garland [31:32]
What's the reason behind it? What's what's the
J. Kelly Hoey [31:34]
the other two areas that are really key in terms of high impact strategies. Mhmm. Churn, which is network churn. You like you need to look and see where's the stuff that's stale. Right? Where, you know, you may be over indexing with a particular part of your network. And you're like, you know what? I gotta churn my own activities. I don't need to do this with them every week. I can see them once a month. Think about committees and things. Guess what? Everybody knows me in this organization. I can now step back from a direct leadership role. I'm gonna put someone who works with me or someone else who I see as a rising star in the organization. I'm gonna put them in the leadership role. My name is still in the room. I can still contact people and know what's going on, but I don't have to do the heavy lifting. So churn is a big thing. Churn could also be, Gee, I've been turning to this person all the time for business advice, and it's not been so good lately. Maybe I gotta churn them out. I'm not ditching the relationship. I'm not abandoning it. I'm like, I need some fresh ideas and fresh insights and a new way to look at these things. Yeah. And then the other high impact activity is visibility. That is really looking at you know, when I talked we talked earlier about these two networks, your sort of your inner circle and this broader professional networks where you need to kind of know what's going on. Where's your visibility in those? Right? What is it that you need to do to have that visibility? Do you need to contribute to a newsletter or write an article? Do you need to push them to be on a podcast or be on a panel or speak at an annual event? Do you need to take a leadership role? How and where are you visible? Because some of those professional networks, your visibility may be, I just need to go to the annual conference every year. And I need to sit in the lobby at the conference center and say hello to everybody. Guess what?
Adrienne Garland [33:37]
Just, I'm here, right?
J. Kelly Hoey [33:39]
I'm here, Right? That is a true example with a finance conference that happens in South Florida every year. And what you learn after the first time you go is, yeah, you just need to sit in the lobby.
Adrienne Garland [33:53]
That's a great piece of information. Right?
J. Kelly Hoey [33:55]
Right. But that's and probably something your inner circle could tell you. Oh, I've been five times. Here's how you work that conference. Right? So you these you know, you see how these these these kind of levers go. But those, you know, I'm gonna say churn, visibility, and brokering, like, those are really key activities and high impact because so many women, you probably hear it all the time, I hear it all the time, they don't have time to do any networking, she says in air quote. And it is the most important thing we can do for our business, our ventures, our aspirations, our dreams, our success.
Adrienne Garland [34:34]
You know, it it's really gosh. I'm just I'm taking in everything that you're saying in my mind is going in all of these places because I think that when women say that they don't have time, what then happens is they cut out part of this more 360 degree picture that could not only benefit them, but then benefits the whole entire network. So they they almost like because of the time constraint, they default to transactional. And then and then it feels yucky. Right? Like, please introduce me to it here because I need to get business. And then they go and they they're off to the races doing whatever they're doing, but then they never come back and then play the role of the broker. Right? Almost to to give back because they're time constraint. And it's an investment.
J. Kelly Hoey [35:26]
Right. Well, and this model, this, I wanna say, focused grit networks model of success. Right? It is very much and this is why this is a workbook. You know, that's why I structured this and designed it as a workbook. Is and it's a lot of inner work. Right?
Adrienne Garland [35:44]
Yeah.
J. Kelly Hoey [35:46]
But by definition, the way it works is if you follow this model, you will and you have to, for your own success, lift up other women towards their success. Because again, go back to what do these women do differently? They network and prioritize networking with other women.
Adrienne Garland [36:07]
Yeah. Yeah. That that's that's the the key to all of this is how do you then circle back and give forward? That's that's how this flywheel starts. And the proof that you're talking about is that, yeah, there are a lot of other people doing it in a different way. And they're actually wasting their time because they're not as successful as the women that do take the time to do these extra activities. They're not extra activities.
J. Kelly Hoey [36:41]
They're They're essential.
Adrienne Garland [36:42]
Critical components Right. Of this whole entire flywheel.
J. Kelly Hoey [36:47]
Yes. And this flywheel for women to, you know, to be the high achieving successful women they wanna
Adrienne Garland [36:53]
tough, Kelly.
J. Kelly Hoey [36:54]
They they they they have to prioritize and network with other women. It's just and that's where you're giving back. So this isn't like sitting there thinking, Oh, here's all the things I need. You're like, If you've got an inner circle and you're asking them for advice, well, guess what, honey? They're gonna be asking you too. So get ready to pull out your network to help somebody else.
Adrienne Garland [37:16]
Yeah. This is so good. And so why do you think that women have not sort of caught up to this. It's because they haven't read your book yet. We know that. But what or I haven't worked your book. Why don't you think more women sort of take this approach? What do you what do you think is is the obstacle there?
J. Kelly Hoey [37:39]
Well, I mean, for me, when I, you know, read this study and, you know, some of it does pick up on some of the things I was saying in Build Your Dream Network, so it wasn't that alien. But when I was asked to comment on the study I mentioned, I was like, where has this information been all my career? And it's buried away in academic journals. So there's amazing social scientists who've been looking at this for years. Like, incredible stuff. And I'm like, yo, we need to get it out of the academia Yes. And into action. That's really what I hope the social billionaire is for women.
Adrienne Garland [38:16]
So this works not only for women that are seeking leadership roles within larger corporations, but also for women entrepreneurs. Do you see anything different with the way that, you know, successful women entrepreneurs are using their their the power of their network to to launch businesses that get past that million dollar mark? Because so few women get past that mark. So how can they even use these principles to help propel themselves past there?
J. Kelly Hoey [38:53]
Yeah. I mean, that was the big reason for doing so much more research than the initial study or two that I looked at was like, where else does this pattern? And as I sort of noted, it it falls I was at, like, the research, you know, little rabbit hole. I fell down, like, Alice in Wonderland, you know, from women in film to women in higher education to women entrepreneurs, women in management, so and and globally. Mhmm. So where I find with women in business is and thinking in terms of people wanting the answer and a formula. They're sort of like, just, How do I do this? Just give me the one thing. And I'm like, It is personalized. It is individualized. But the most important thing to think about if you were an entrepreneur, I'd be like, you know, starting where this book starts. What's your goal? What are you focused on? What right now? Okay, now I want you to Don't tell me I want to get to a million dollars. Tell me, I want to get to a million dollars. Okay. That's your overarching kind of big umbrella goal. What are the things underneath that? What are the milestones? What are the questions you have about that? Okay. Who are the networks and relationships you need? Right? I often find people, particularly entrepreneurs, they're like, Well, I need And I'm like, Yeah, but what does the business need? When you're writing your goal and the milestones and the sub goals, thinking about it, what does the business need? That may necessitate, in terms of your network, a lot of churn. May be an advisory board that you need for the next three months. There may be a different advisory board you may need for the next nine months.
Adrienne Garland [40:29]
Yes. I'm a
J. Kelly Hoey [40:29]
big fan of term limits
Adrienne Garland [40:31]
on boards and things I that we love this. Yeah.
J. Kelly Hoey [40:34]
People always think that, Oh, well, I'll just get this structure in place. And it's like, No, no, you need a structure. But this is like musical chairs, particularly for an entrepreneur. What stage are you at? The information you need when you're starting out versus when you're scaling versus when you're entering a new market versus all of those different things. The board member who got into being incorporated and all that kind of stuff may not be the board member, right, to get you Probably is not. Right. And so sort of thinking about, all right. And in this hard, let's both admit it, hard journey of being an entrepreneur, really being clear on what your tired, drained, exhausted, frustrated self needs, right? When our ego needs to be like wrapped and cotton battened and taken care of, separate that out from the people who know how to get your business for it because they're not necessarily the same people.
Adrienne Garland [41:38]
Yeah. This brings up a real I can't think of the word, like attention. Because I do think that women, we tend toward loyalty, and we are so grateful for the people that have helped us. And so almost like the people that have got us to a certain point, you know, we feel guilty and we don't wanna leave those people behind. But the if you're building a business or you're building your career, it does require what you you said, it requires churn. So how do you how do you elegantly churn and still maintain those relationships? Because they might not be important right now at this stage, but they are important people.
J. Kelly Hoey [42:29]
Right. And when I say churn, this is not like, you know, a flush. Right. So we do have Like, those people, there are those people, right? But this is like, you've been in this role. I now need somebody else to, you know, take that seat. And here's the interaction and the role that we're going to have now. The best advice I would have in in this situation, particularly for entrepreneurs, is you you set it up in advance in the sense of, hey, Adrienne, you I'm thinking about doing a podcast. You're really an accomplished podcast host. Here's some of the questions I have about starting a podcast. Can we have a conversation? So you look at it and you're like, All right, here's my advice on this because use this. I've tried every platform, use Riverside, I've done this, do this, da da da da da. But yeah, why don't we have a fifteen minute conversation on outcomes and what you can expect on how long it may take? Okay? And then it's very much, Thank you. If I have any other questions, Adrienne, can I contact you in the future? Right? Right. I don't need to be like, Oh, I got to talk to Adrienne every week about my podcast. Right? Right. So you set up in advance, like, here's what I need. All right, this point is And this is where I think, particularly for entrepreneurs, understanding that this is where my business need is right now. Hey, this is what my business needs over the next six months. You have done these things. Over the next six months, do you think you could help me achieve X, Y, and Z? You're giving, you know, sort of a boundary, you know, parameters on the engagement. You're letting them know the time, right? You know the expectations. It also gives the other person the opportunity to say, That's amazing. Glad that's what you need from someone and you're really thinking about your business clearly. And by the way, I'm going away for the next six months. Right? You're not just assuming that someone else is going to jump in, or they're like, Yeah, I'm more than willing to help you, but I'm away a lot the next six months, so we're going to have to do this by email. Right? So we're now getting frustrated or feeling guilty or, you know, everybody is clear on expectations. In this scenario, set it up in advance in terms of what you need them for and why. Lay it all out. Listen, this is my preliminary advisory board. I'm gonna ask you to do this for a year. We will talk about it at the end of the year of how we move forward. Right now, here's my one year plan to get my idea off the ground or to get this new product launched or whatever it may be. You know? This sort of idea of like, Oh, I love you. Can you be on my advisory board? Yeah, that's not helpful to anybody. Get more central because they're not doing anything and you're not getting what your business needs. Know? Yeah. So that's what I
Adrienne Garland [45:15]
would do. I love it. And I think that communication is at the center of all of it too, and clear communication and, you know, not feeling that you're you're being transactional, but you're stating what it is that you need at this point in time. And I think that as women, we can all learn we can all learn and and practice how to to do that. And I think by making sure that you are very thoughtful about how you're building your network. It it it always comes back to, like, an assessment. The the way that you're speaking about everything, I almost feel like it's, you know, what's the situation analysis, right, from a from a an objective point of view? And then what are we trying to achieve? How do we get there? What are the gaps? Where are the places that we can fill those things in? And then being very clear about, this is my situation. This is the gaps. Can you or somebody that you know help me to fill those for right now? And just making sure that we're clearly communicating all of these things instead of I I feel sometimes when we're talking to other women that it's like, oh, you know, it's it's and I don't mean to paint a wishy washy picture because I think women are badasses in in the best way possible.
J. Kelly Hoey [46:39]
We are.
Adrienne Garland [46:40]
At the same time, we are hyper aware of, you know, people's feelings and that we we don't wanna take advantage of them. And I think what happens sometimes is we then soften our language and maybe approach things in a wishy washy way because we don't want to, you know, rock the boat, harm people's feelings, make them think we're transactional. But, you know, I think we need to be a little bit more forthright.
J. Kelly Hoey [47:04]
Well, I think the kindest thing you can do is to be forthright because Yeah. You give the other person the opportunity to say, Wow, that's amazing, and it doesn't fit within my timeline. Or, That's not my expertise. Or, you know, when you say and state what you need, know,
Adrienne Garland [47:21]
it's Life a lot lesson.
J. Kelly Hoey [47:22]
Yeah. A lot of us have the tendency to think, okay, you know what? Like, I will soften it or I will kind of say, well, I'm sort of looking for, you know, we'll lose a career example. I'm looking for a job, right? Or, you know, an entrepreneur, I'm looking for an investor. Okay. This little thing that sits between your ears, right, your conscious brain, that part of this little thing between your ears, it's got too much going on. Yeah. If you give to somebody else a vague ask, that part of our brain is like, No bueno, shutting down. No, no. Know, louder than sirens in New York City, right? Like, it is just gonna shut it down. But when you go for something specific, it busts through that noise. And that's when it gets to your subconscious brain. And someone used the example once, the analogy, they said, Your subconscious brain is like a dog that's looking for that bone it's buried. And it's like, Oh, let's go find an answer. Let's go find an answer. Right? It's running around trying to see where you've met someone before, where you've had that experience. All of us, Right? It behooves us to be precise in what we're looking for. It behooves us to sit there and listen to what someone else really needs, because that's when you can start opening up opportunities.
Adrienne Garland [48:43]
So good. So I love this thought that I had. So you've written two books now. Right? I think when you write books, you pour what's maybe in your subconscious onto the page. Right? You almost get it out of you and and you're like, okay. Next. Now I'm moving on to this next thing. You've just completed and launched The Social Billionaire. How has writing that book changed you, and what are you onto next?
J. Kelly Hoey [49:19]
Oh, this is this book so the I think the first book I you know, in terms of being in, you know, the place to write it and being asked by two other authors for my insights and going in a very quiet library voice, I think. I remember where I stood, and I was like. And that, I think, it served a different purpose in terms of a reinvention and a healing and getting my confidence back. And this one, which had a different route to publishing, I was like, I just wanna get this information out there. Right. And once I was like, Why did I write this book? I wanted this book I wanted this information out of academia into women's hands, and I wanted it in a format that could I'm like, Oh, I can do that. No one's stopping me. Right? Right. Let me just get this information out there. And then once, sort of over that hurdle, I was like, Okay, what's another thing that kind of would scare me that I haven't thought of doing? And as you may know, I grew up in Canada. I grew up reading Margaret Atwood and Ellis Monroe, and probably at an age that I shouldn't have been reading those books, but I was reading them. I have always sort of said, Well, I could never write fiction. And guess what I'm jumping into now, Adrienne? I'm writing some fiction.
Adrienne Garland [50:39]
Amazing. Oh my gosh. I cannot wait. I cannot wait. It's going to be a different process, probably a different part of your brain because the the logical let me lay this out for you. Like, here's, you know, what we need
J. Kelly Hoey [50:55]
to heart. This is this This is
Adrienne Garland [50:57]
is all heart.
J. Kelly Hoey [50:58]
Yeah. I needed the social billionaire. I think, like, from Build Your Dream Network to writing fiction, that wasn't gonna happen. This, the social billionaire, is it's the bridge, you know, between those two things because there's so much heart in this one, in the way it's laid out, the way I presented the information, the reflections, the exercises, the tools. It's very heart In perspective. Yes. And very heart centered. Like, what matters to you? Know? What drives us? It's not just fill in the blank, right? It's relationships drive us, succeeding drives us as well, even if we've been successful. So this is like, all right, why does this matter to you? Right? What do you need to sustain you? What are the relationships you need? So this is a very much a heart centered book in terms of approaching the business relationships you need to excel and succeed. I think that because of that, I was able to sort of think, I want to get my hand at this other thing.
Adrienne Garland [52:01]
Yeah. It's like it cracked open within you. Like, why, why, why am I doing this?
J. Kelly Hoey [52:07]
What's my goal? I had What's my goal? Yeah. Yeah. Like, I had to do my own chapter on, you know, what, you know, what is, what is my focus? It's like, oh, yeah, this matters to me. But if I'm gonna be true to the social billionaire, I need to pursue this other thing too.
Adrienne Garland [52:20]
Oh, so good. Oh, I see, I see movies in the future. I see I see a director sitting in front of me. Oh, yeah. Netflix specials. It's all happening. Oh, yeah. Gotta be Netflix. See that.
J. Kelly Hoey [52:34]
Yeah. I've I've got too much of a body bag for the Hallmark Channel.
Adrienne Garland [52:37]
No. No. No. Screw the Hallmark Channel. Oh my gosh. Kelly, this has been so wonderful. I've loved seeing you again and talking, and and you're gonna come back with the the next book. Okay? And we'll talk about I I don't even know what the the realm of the topic is, but I cannot wait.
J. Kelly Hoey [52:56]
Thank you so much, Adrienne. This has just been a ball.
Adrienne Garland [53:00]
So much fun. Okay. Oh, oh, how can I forget? How can people get in touch with you? How can they get the book? Please tell us everything.
J. Kelly Hoey [53:11]
So the book is available on Amazon. It's at Barnes and Noble. If you go to bookshop.org, you can order it from, you know, book stores there. It's I recommend the paperback, but it is in any book as as well. You know, Rakuten, all all the all the big, you know, ebook sites, they have the book. And my website is jkellyhoey.co. So jkellyhoey.co, and that's got all the links and stuff of where to find me from the newsletter to the book to email to whatever else.
Adrienne Garland [53:45]
Love it. Love it. We will put all of that in the show notes. And, again, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure. If this conversation moved you, inspired you, or made you think differently, please take a moment to leave a five star rating and review. It's not just about boosting the show. It's about amplifying the voices of women entrepreneurs who are leading with vision, building with purpose, and shaping what's next. We need more of these conversations in the world right now, don't you think? And if someone came to mind while you were listening, someone who matters to you, send this episode to them. If there's something on your mind about leadership, legacy, or what's next, I want to hear it. Head to sheleadsmedia.com backslash voice and leave a voice memo or note. Your insight might just help shape a future Make sure to follow the show and come back next week for more conversations you won't hear anywhere else. Thank you so much for listening.
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